[Harp-L] Hearing yourself



 When I started the Sonny Jr line 10 years ago, I went for Walter's recorded sound, hence the SJ1, 25 watts of raw tone. I have done enough testing with feedback eliminators and engineering to know how to build a ridiculously LOUD amp, but I have never chose to do that. Why, because that is not the blues, as it has been taught first hand to me from the masters. DYNAMICS of the band make up the blues, the ebb and flow of taking the people you are playing FOR, not AT. So even with the 410 which can get loud enough to keep up, the main issue is always TONE, and if the rest of the band members are not getting the jist, why are we doing this. There must me a unified work in progress to have the blues brought back to its roots, with modern updates. Players can all be mic'd, on stage volume decent, but pushed in the house, so you CAN hear those pin drops when you bring it down, not hearing the phone ring every ten seconds in your head 24 hours a day. WE must make the effort to bring this back. The younger players, please listen to us guys that have been around, and have had it passed it down first hand, we must keep the tradition of real blues alive, but only in numbers can we succeed. Now if I can only invent the remote to cut a guitar players amp in half without them knowing it, I may actually make money at this:)) Just had an MRI yesterday for possible acoustic neuroma, basically tumor of the inner ear, wont know until next week. This is serious stuff fellows, and there is nothing more exciting than holding an audience in the palm of your hand with one breath. Sonny Terry told me and you have heard me say this again and again, if you want them to listen harder, play softer. Sonny Jr.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: harp-l-request@xxxxxxxxxx
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:08:33 -0400
Subject: Harp-L Digest, Vol 22, Issue 4


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Hearing Yourself  (gorky)
   2. Technique Question (Blake Taylor)
   3. RE: Technique Question (Bill Hines)
   4. RE: Re: Hearing yourself (S.Doyle Yoder Sr)
   5. Re: Technique Question (Dave Murray)
   6. Re: More Technique Question (Dave Murray)
   7. Re: Shaker Retro Rocket (conruth@xxxxxxxxx)
   8. Re: Re: Hearing yourself (fjm)
   9. RE: feedback/ vs: ringing in the ears (S.Doyle Yoder Sr)
  10. Re: Technique (backbender1)
  11. differences between types of mic elements (Captron100@xxxxxxx)
  12. Re: Re: Hearing yourself (Mike and Beverly Rogers)
  13. Re: Re: Roommate for SPAH convention (Barbara Butler)
  14. RE: differences between types of mic elements (Mike Reid)
  15. Fwd:  [Harp-L] differences between types of mic elements (John K.)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:32:57 +0200
From: gorky <gorky@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Harp-L] Re: Hearing Yourself 
To: Harp_L <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <1154BAE3-D35A-11D9-ADD0-0003930F4ECC@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed


If people think that you don't play well when your volume is not on 11, 
they' re wrong and it means
they don't listen to others instruments and don't care about music. I' 
m maybe radical but i do think it. However, MN is right when he says 
that you can develop tones and phrasing to find a little place in a 
tune. It means YOU have to listen to the whole intruments what is 
essential.That' s a good school. Once it's done (it can take a very 
long time), you will be a  not only a harp player but a MUSICIAN.

  Gorky 




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 08:23:05 -0400
From: "Blake Taylor" <taylorb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Harp-L] Technique Question
To: <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <s29ec1fe.066@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Attention all teachers of amplified harp:

There's an amplified harp technique that you hear regularly in really
good "Chicago" harp that I can't quite figure out. Trouble is, I'm not
sure exactly how to explain it.

I think it's a tongue blocking technique, and the best way I can
describe it is that its a combination of both melodic line and rhythm at
the same time.

I hear it most often when a player is playing without accompaniment in
up-tempo songs - and they're kind of "chugging" and soloing at the same
time to create a rhythm. You can hear the main notes, but there's
something subtle in between each note that adds a tad of percussion.

Think James Cotton's "Creeper" or Jason Ricci's Geophiny (sp?). On a
shuffle, think Portnoy on "Harry's Groove."

It gives kind of a "Chick-a Chick-a" rhythm, with the "Chick" being the
solo line, and the "a" being the mystery rhythm thingy.

Like I said, lots of the pros do this...probably plenty of the better
ameteurs, too. Though I can tongueblock to add texture / tone to
individual notes or octaves, I can't figure out this solo/rhythm thing,
and it's probably because I trained my early ear on Butterfield and SBII
and not Walter. 

Anyway, I'd appreciate your thoughts, and thanks for letting me use
harp-l as a teaching / learning resource.

 - Blake

























------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:34:14 -0400
From: "Bill Hines" <billhines4@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [Harp-L] Technique Question
To: "'Blake Taylor'" <taylorb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <007401c5676f$6354cda0$6601a8c0@HinesIBMA50p>
Keywords: Personal
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="US-ASCII"

I'm not an expert or harp teacher, so I'll wait (and look forward) for
them to post. But it sounds like you're talking about tongue slaps,
where you are tongue blocking and lift your tongue rhythmically to
produce chords along with the single notes when your tongue is over the
holes. 

I think you can hear a lot of this on SBWII's studio version of Help Me,
in one section he plays the solo piece as single notes and then I think
twice he does it using the technique you describe (well, a variant
anyway, not so much on the single notes, it's kind of mushed up when he
does it). I'll have to listen to the other songs you mention to check.

Bill Hines
Hershey, PA

-----Original Message-----
From: harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Blake Taylor
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:23 AM
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Harp-L] Technique Question


Attention all teachers of amplified harp:

There's an amplified harp technique that you hear regularly in really
good "Chicago" harp that I can't quite figure out. Trouble is, I'm not
sure exactly how to explain it.

I think it's a tongue blocking technique, and the best way I can
describe it is that its a combination of both melodic line and rhythm at
the same time.

I hear it most often when a player is playing without accompaniment in
up-tempo songs - and they're kind of "chugging" and soloing at the same
time to create a rhythm. You can hear the main notes, but there's
something subtle in between each note that adds a tad of percussion.

Think James Cotton's "Creeper" or Jason Ricci's Geophiny (sp?). On a
shuffle, think Portnoy on "Harry's Groove."

It gives kind of a "Chick-a Chick-a" rhythm, with the "Chick" being the
solo line, and the "a" being the mystery rhythm thingy.

Like I said, lots of the pros do this...probably plenty of the better
ameteurs, too. Though I can tongueblock to add texture / tone to
individual notes or octaves, I can't figure out this solo/rhythm thing,
and it's probably because I trained my early ear on Butterfield and SBII
and not Walter. 

Anyway, I'd appreciate your thoughts, and thanks for letting me use
harp-l as a teaching / learning resource.

 - Blake























_______________________________________________
Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org Harp-L@xxxxxxxxxx
http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:42:21 -0500
From: "S.Doyle Yoder Sr" <doyle@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [Harp-L] Re: Hearing yourself
To: "M. N." <mnessmith@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <KHEFKBGBBMHHMGFCCABGMEHLCAAA.doyle@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="iso-8859-1"



-----Original Message-----
From: harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of M. N.
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:15 AM
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Harp-L] Re: Hearing yourself


Jeff wrote:
"I've been playing harp actively for about a year and recently began
attending various open mike jams at clubs in town to gain experience ... I
can never hear myself clearly through the monitors. <snip>Am I the only harp
player with this problem? As I improve, will it be less important to hear
myself clearly?"

============================

But it's been
my experience that as you get better on the instrument and develop more
resonant tone, you will suddenly have fewer problems hearing yourself in the
mix (plus, the gear you used to think inadequate will suddenly start -
magically! - to sound pretty good). Hang in there, have fun and keep
blowing! Lessons are invaluable if you can track down a teacher in your
area.
 In terms of learning to play harp, one year's not much. You know
the old saying, "Harp takes 5 minutes to learn and 20 years to master."
Personally, I think that 20-year figure is optimistic.
MN

I agree with what MN has posted, and might say that the 20 year might be
loosely converted to 'hours in the wood shed'.  I know that as I have grown
more confident in my ability, it seemed I could hear myself better, but it
was not as important to hear myself 100% of the time.  I also found out that
I had to "Know my limitations" as the saying goes.

Doyle
_______________________________________________
Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
Harp-L@xxxxxxxxxx
http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:59:05 -0700
From: "Dave Murray" <dlmurray@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Technique Question
To: "Blake Taylor" <taylorb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <004e01c56772$dc50e970$3bfacbd8@WHOCARES>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

If I'm not mistaken, you are talking about a tongue block/lift technique 
where you self accompany with rhythm chords along with your melody. Number 
of instructional materials cover the technique, but Madcat Ruth's "Anyone 
Can Play Harmonica" does a good job of demonstrating how to apply the 
technique to music using simple easy to play folk tunes. The DVD looks to be 
so way beginner that most people will pass on it. Too bad, the simple 
lessons do a good job of teaching you to apply it to your own music. 
Standard disclaimer, blah, blah....

Peace and music,
Dave



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:03:55 -0700
From: "Dave Murray" <dlmurray@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] More Technique Question
To: "Blake Taylor" <taylorb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <006701c56773$892dd770$3bfacbd8@WHOCARES>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

As fate would have it
http://www.harmonicasessions.com/jun05/unique.html

Peace and music,
Dave



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:26:35 -0400
From: conruth@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Harp-L] Re: Shaker Retro Rocket
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <l03130304bec4b94b7489@[192.168.1.64]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Joe Harless of Shaker Microphone tells me the new Shaker Retro Rocket
Microphone will be out soon.  The Retro Rocket is the approximate shape of
an Astatic or Green Bullet, but smaller.  I saw and tried a prototype and
it was way cool...

Madcat

>Does anyone have any info on this, Last I heard it
>was supposed to be introduced last July, but i have
>not heard a peep about it so I suppose it has not
>come out. Does anyone know if they are still planning
>on releasing it? Thanks
>Phantom Rooster
>





------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 06:27:44 -0700
From: fjm <mktspot@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Re: Hearing yourself
To: h-l <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <429F0950.1080707@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Or as was pointed out hearing at all at the age of 56.  Clearly 
escalation in terms of volume is not a viable long term strategy. 
Coming to grips with this has been an arm wrestle for me.  I currently 
play in a 3 piece, harmonica, bass, guitar.  Sometimes we'll add drums. 
I'm using a 5 watt amplifier.   I can hear myself in the mix quite well. 
  I used to play in a 6 piece band, electric bass, drums 2 guitars and a 
sax along with me on harmonica. In that band I used various amps, Twin 
Reverb, Bassman RI, Concert, Blonde Basman head into a 3X10 bottom. 
Hearing myself was always somewhat of a struggle and an arms race. 
Using hearing protection helped but it becomes difficult to gauge your 
relative volume and you lose the sound of the amp tone.  Ultimately I 
opted out of the blues band club scene.  I migrated into a Country and 
Western pick up band which was a 4 piece and a lot quieter but it was 
still too much volume for me.

Exposing your ears to high spl (sound pressure levels) causes hearing 
damage. period.  It's a health issue.  If you're lucky you'll just get 
the ensuing tinnitus and hearing loss.  If you're unlucky you'll end up 
dizzy and unable to play music because of an acquired sensitivity to 
loud noises.  As a generation grows up headsets plugged into I-pods car 
stereos booming the health issue of significant hearing loss will only 
become more widespread. Little Walter didn't grow up playing music in 
the same environment as we have.  Amps were smaller and a lot less 
powerful.  Electric bass was new to the scene and stand up was the norm 
well into the 50's.  I really never thought I'd live to see the day 
where cigarette smoking in bars was banned in several states.  It was 
just something I put up with to play music.  The reality is the choice 
is ours.  Playing loudly is a choice and you can choose to not do it. 
Sure it's a lot of work to find like minded people and put together a 
quieter more dynamic group but in the long run you'll have more fun and 
live to hear into your 60's instead of starting to lose the middle 
frequencies in your 30's.  People rave about the Jason Ricci shows but 
the reality is he plays too damn loud too.  Exposing yourself to high 
spl is flat out risky behaviour and a health risk and it's a matter of 
when not if it'll come back to bite you.  I have yet to meet a 50 
something railroader that doesn't say what every second word if he/she 
is in a noisy environment.  fjm


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:42:22 -0500
From: "S.Doyle Yoder Sr" <doyle@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [Harp-L] feedback/ vs: ringing in the ears
To: "Bob Cohen" <bcohen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "bloozeharp"
    <bloozeharp@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Harp-L <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <KHEFKBGBBMHHMGFCCABGOEHLCAAA.doyle@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="iso-8859-1"



-----Original Message-----
From: harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx]On
Behalf Of Bob Cohen
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 11:33 PM
To: bloozeharp
Cc: Harp-L
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] feedback


bloozeharp wrote:
> Well Bob, I hate to pop your bubble but one of these days you are going
> to be sitting around like me (at 56) not able to hear jack----.

Whadja say sonny? Thanks. But I've got no bubbles left to pop.

About 30 years ago I discovered that I had tenititus, (ringing in the ears),
and there are times that I think that someone is blowing a super high 'E' in
the background.  But, thankgoodness that hasn't halted my love for the
music, that I hear above it.


_______________________________________________
Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
Harp-L@xxxxxxxxxx
http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:39:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: backbender1 <backbender1@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Harp-L] Re: Technique
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20050602143907.83278.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Indeed, what you are hearing is the tongue-blocked
technique being utitlized rhythmically, and/or with a
on-off effect commonly referred to as a "slap" or a
"vamp".  This is one of the things that make the
Chicago style so appealing to me, and I'm sure many
others.

-Dennis Gruenling
www.dennisgruenling.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:14:31 EDT
From: Captron100@xxxxxxx
Subject: [Harp-L] differences between types of mic elements
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <12c.5f17d72a.2fd07c57@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

 
Can anyone tell of a good site that will explain and show pics of the  
different types of mic elements?

ron


------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:22:39 -0400
From: "Mike and Beverly Rogers" <mbrogers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Re: Hearing yourself
To: "fjm" <mktspot@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "h-l" <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <001a01c56786$eb8de230$0500a8c0@DirtRoad>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="iso-8859-1"

Here's another one with tinitis.  I'm 65, and took some bad hits, when I was
young.  I stayed out of loud bands for years, but now, my son and I play
together.  It gets loud, and I wear molded ear filters.  Dunno how long I'll
last with the volume.  Definitely reccomend the filters, even if it does
alter what you hear.  It takes the pain away  Bullfrog
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "fjm" <mktspot@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "h-l" <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Re: Hearing yourself


> Or as was pointed out hearing at all at the age of 56.  Clearly
> escalation in terms of volume is not a viable long term strategy.
> Coming to grips with this has been an arm wrestle for me.  I currently
> play in a 3 piece, harmonica, bass, guitar.  Sometimes we'll add drums.
> I'm using a 5 watt amplifier.   I can hear myself in the mix quite well.
>   I used to play in a 6 piece band, electric bass, drums 2 guitars and a
> sax along with me on harmonica. In that band I used various amps, Twin
> Reverb, Bassman RI, Concert, Blonde Basman head into a 3X10 bottom.
> Hearing myself was always somewhat of a struggle and an arms race.
> Using hearing protection helped but it becomes difficult to gauge your
> relative volume and you lose the sound of the amp tone.  Ultimately I
> opted out of the blues band club scene.  I migrated into a Country and
> Western pick up band which was a 4 piece and a lot quieter but it was
> still too much volume for me.
>
> Exposing your ears to high spl (sound pressure levels) causes hearing
> damage. period.  It's a health issue.  If you're lucky you'll just get
> the ensuing tinnitus and hearing loss.  If you're unlucky you'll end up
> dizzy and unable to play music because of an acquired sensitivity to
> loud noises.  As a generation grows up headsets plugged into I-pods car
> stereos booming the health issue of significant hearing loss will only
> become more widespread. Little Walter didn't grow up playing music in
> the same environment as we have.  Amps were smaller and a lot less
> powerful.  Electric bass was new to the scene and stand up was the norm
> well into the 50's.  I really never thought I'd live to see the day
> where cigarette smoking in bars was banned in several states.  It was
> just something I put up with to play music.  The reality is the choice
> is ours.  Playing loudly is a choice and you can choose to not do it.
> Sure it's a lot of work to find like minded people and put together a
> quieter more dynamic group but in the long run you'll have more fun and
> live to hear into your 60's instead of starting to lose the middle
> frequencies in your 30's.  People rave about the Jason Ricci shows but
> the reality is he plays too damn loud too.  Exposing yourself to high
> spl is flat out risky behaviour and a health risk and it's a matter of
> when not if it'll come back to bite you.  I have yet to meet a 50
> something railroader that doesn't say what every second word if he/she
> is in a noisy environment.  fjm
> _______________________________________________
> Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
> Harp-L@xxxxxxxxxx
> http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l
>
>
>




------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:22:35 -0400
From: Barbara Butler <bsvb@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Re: Roommate for SPAH convention
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <fe6bceeccde8bc3e886df58b5eb98f45@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=US-ASCII;   delsp=yes;  format=flowed

I am trying to decide how many days I can afford to attend the  
convention.  Are there any girls, women, female persons ( you get my  
drift) who would be interested in sharing a room?  If you are  
interested reply off list. Thanks.



Barbara
"Too many people die with their music still inside - Let it out!"
Strath an De' Farm
http://www.strathande.com
Coast to Coast Music
http://coast2coastmusic.com/cgi-bin/cart/goto?pg=http:// 
coast2coastmusic.com/index.shtml&mv_pv=AFL3356


------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:28:54 -0400
From: "Mike Reid" <mreid@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [Harp-L] differences between types of mic elements
To: <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
    <0C54F942E8F2C34C8E0D1DD898D312B5EB95F3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="iso-8859-1"

http://harmonicamasterclass.com/vintage_collection.htm
Try this out

-----Original Message-----
From: Captron100@xxxxxxx [mailto:Captron100@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:15 AM
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Harp-L] differences between types of mic elements


 
Can anyone tell of a good site that will explain and show pics of the  
different types of mic elements?

ron
_______________________________________________
Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
Harp-L@xxxxxxxxxx
http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:07:11 -0000
From: "John K." <jkuzloski@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Fwd:  [Harp-L] differences between types of mic elements
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <d7narf+11323@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

--- In harp-l-archives@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Captron100@xxxx wrote:
 
Can anyone tell of a good site that will explain and show pics of the  
different types of mic elements?

ron

Also try:
http://www.bluesharp.org/cgi-bin/newsampseffectsviewnews.cgi?
category=5&id=1050130011

--john k.
_______________________________________________
Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
Harp-L@xxxx
http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l
--- End forwarded message ---





------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
Harp-L mailing list
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End of Harp-L Digest, Vol 22, Issue 4
*************************************




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