Re: [Harp-L] (no subject)



That's ridiculous!
Now DRIED camel dung, that's another story...

a high fiber harp

Dan
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Payne" <dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Harp L Harp L" <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] (no subject)





Bulldogg,

If one were to make a comb from wet horse manure, would there be some change in tone? As long as that material were airtight with the reedplate, then there should be no difference as I understand the argument. Is there perhaps some extreme where it does..


Dave



----- Original Message ---- From: Joe and Cass Leone <leone@xxxxxxxx> To: Jonathan Ross <jross38@xxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 10:25:55 PM Subject: Re: [Harp-L] (no subject)


On Sep 18, 2008, at 6:39 PM, Jonathan Ross wrote:


Quotes labeled ""a)"", etc... are by Tom Halchak, all other quotes
are from Smokey Joe:

""b) There is no conclusive proof that comb material makes much
difference - however,""

"Why does it have to be proven? Doesn't a person's personal
feelings play a part?"

No. Whether comb material effects the timbre, volume, etc... of a
harmonica is a question of mechanical and physical facts. It's a
scientific question, much like whether a higher octane count in
gasoline improves the performance of a combustion engine (better
yet, a specific combustion engine). It can be tested, measured and
known.


" I mean, what is this, some kind of a contest? I mean, if it's proven or dis-proven would that make the world spin slower/ faster? Why can't a person feel that they can perceive a difference? "


Please feel free to believe whatever you want. But that is a completely different issue to whether or not comb material has an effect on the performance of the harmonica. Talking about the later and the attempt to discern for a fact what is actually going on need not effect the former, ie individual's personal preferences and even their beliefs. Though, if both tests and theory indicate that comb material makes no difference, then an individual who chooses to believe that comb material does make a difference has no logical ground to stand on. But that doesn't mean that they aren't free to believe whatever they want. If they want to believe that a harmonica made on the seventh day of the seventh month sounds better than any other one, then so be it. But it would be no more or less ridiculous than believing in comb material as a difference (given the current tests and theory).

So, you're saying I'm ridiculous?


smo-joe


"Isn't it possible that there are ringing overtones, microtones, or
vibrations that a player prefers from one material in preference to
another material. Why does everything center on whether the
listeners can hear a difference?"


Because those are the tests that have so far been done. Feel free to create other controlled tests of the player and see what the results are. But, it is much harder to control for the player being blind to the material than a listener, so creating the proper conditions would be more difficult. You would need a wide sample of players, to begin with. In any event, most of the theories for why a player would hear a difference have been discussed, and frankly dismissed pretty easily (this includes things such as bone conduction).


"It's like the silly tourage about tuning. There's just, equal, 12- tet, and yada yada. There was an 11 man ensenble at spah and deducting the Wizard Winslow's baritone harp, and Stan Bowe's bass harp, the other 9 players were playing mostly 64 reed chromos (some used 48s) , AND they were DIFFERENT makes & models.."


All probably tuned to 12TET, as most chromatics and bass-harps are. Issues of intonation, tuning and temperament have been crucial to every musical culture to have existed, so why not harmonicas?


"I mean golly gosh guys, I can pick up 3 IDENTICAL Hohners in the same key and they will all have subtle differences. Are these differences enough to nail down definitively? No, but they are still there. I had a Toots hard bopper that used to sit on a Circassian Walnut comb. When I mounted the plates on a bronze comb, I could tell the difference. Now, it is true that maybe I changed something ELSE in the overall dynamics without realizing it, and maybe those change(s) HAD an effect. I don't know. "


I would suggest that the only effect needed to explain what you heard is psychological. You knew there was a difference in the comb, therefore you heard a difference in the sound. The psychological effect of expectation, or even simply knowledge is a massive force. It is why blind studies are needed, and why so much effort in any testing must be focused on eliminating that foreknowledge of the conditions.


""c) Those that do believe comb material produces a different sound are prone to seek out and experiment with different materials - and there are plenty available.""

"So this shouldn't be a crime"


It is not a crime. But that doesn't mean that comb material makes a difference to the sound of the harmonica. The two don't follow. Indeed, if comb material makes no difference, then trying out any material one wants for whatever reason becomes even more reasonable--try it, since it doesn't matter what the material is anyway.




()() JR "Bulldogge" Ross () () `----'



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